ഗോപാലകൃഷ്ണനെയും ബാട്ളിവാലയെയും സാഖിറിനെയും തേച്ചു ഒട്ടിച്ചു കൊടുക്കുകയാണ് ഓണ്‍ലൈന്‍ സമൂഹം ഇപ്പോള്‍..; സാഖിര്‍ നായിക്കിന്റെ ഒരു വീഡിയോ ഇവിടെ കാണുക. പോളിഗാമി എന്ത് കൊണ്ട് ഇസ്ലാം ഇപ്പോഴും അനുവദിക്കുന്നു എന്ന ചോദ്യത്തിന് ഉദാഹരണങ്ങള്‍ നിരത്തി, കണക്കുകള്‍ നിരത്തി ഇദ്ദേഹം ഇവിടെ വാദിക്കുന്നുണ്ട്. ഇതിന്റെ സത്യാവസ്ഥ മുന്നില്‍ ഇരിക്കുന്ന എല്ലാവര്‍ക്കും, അല്ലെങ്കില്‍ വീഡിയോ കാണുന്ന എല്ലാവര്‍ക്കും മനസിലാവണം എന്നില്ല, കാരണം ഇത്തരം കണക്കുകള്‍ ഓര്‍ത്തു വെക്കേണ്ട കാര്യം ഇല്ലലോ.
ഇനി കണക്കുകളിലേക്ക് കടക്കാം. ഖുറാനില്‍പറഞ്ഞ എല്ലാ കാര്യവും ഈ കാലഘട്ടത്തിലും അപ്പ്ളിക്കബള്‍ ആണെന്ന് സ്ഥാപിക്കാന്‍ നിരത്തുന്ന കണക്കുകള്‍ പരിശോധിക്കാം.
ഇവിടെ 3.30 മുതല്‍ ശ്രദ്ധിക്കുക - World female population is more than male population (തെറ്റാണ്, സ്ലൈട്ലി ആണുങ്ങള്‍ ആണ് കൂടുതല്‍ )- മൂന്നാം ലോക രാജ്യങ്ങള്‍ ഒഴികെ എന്ന് പറയുന്നു. ഇന്ത്യയും ചൈനയും ഒക്കെ ഉദാഹരണവും പറയുന്നുണ്ട്. ശരി സമ്മതിച്ചു, ഇവിടെ പെണ്‍ ബ്രൂണ ഹത്യ കൊണ്ട് കൂടുതലും ആണുങ്ങള്‍ ആണ്.
ഇനി ദാ ഈ മാപ് ഒന്ന് നോക്കൂ. ഇസ്ലാമിക രാഷ്ട്രങ്ങളില്‍ ആരാണ് കൂടുതല്‍.., ഇതും പെണ്‍ ബ്രൂണ ഹത്യ കൊണ്ട്എന്നാണോ. ഇവിടെ കൊടുത്തിരിക്കുന്ന ലിസ്റ്റ് ഒന്ന് നോക്ക്.
15-64 കാറ്റഗറിയില്‍ സാഖിര്‍ നായിക് പറഞ്ഞ ഈ രാജ്യങ്ങളില്‍, റഷ്യ ഒഴികെ ബാക്കി രാജ്യങ്ങളില്‍ പുരുഷന്മാര്‍ കൂടുതലാണ് അല്ലെങ്കില്‍ സ്ത്രീ പുരുഷ അനുപാതം തുല്യമാണ്. ഇവിടെ ഒക്കെ സ്ത്രീകള്‍ അധികമാവുന്നത് 64 വയസ്സിനു മുകളില്‍ ഉള്ള കാറ്റഗറിയില്‍ ആണ്. അതിനു കാരണം സ്ത്രീകള്‍ക്ക് പുരുഷന്മാരേക്കാള്‍ ഉള്ള ലൈഫ് എക്സ്പക്ടന്സി ആണ് (സാഖിര്‍ നായിക് ആദ്യം പറഞ്ഞ പൊയന്റ്സ് വാലിഡ്‌ ആവുന്നത് ഈ കാറ്റഗറിയില്‍ ആണ്).
മോണോഗാമി ആണോ പോളിഗാമി ആണോ നര വംശത്തിന്റെ നിലനില്‍പ്പിനു ആവശ്യം എന്നത് ഈ ലേഖനത്തിന്റെ ഉദ്ധേശമല്ല. സോഷ്യോബയോളജി അല്ലല്ലോ ഇവിടെ സാഖിര്‍ നായിക് പറയുന്നത്. ക്രിസ്ത്യാനികള്‍ മിനുട്ടില്‍ 29000 ഹിന്ദുക്കളെ മതം മാറ്റുന്നു ന്ന് ഗോപാലകൃഷ്ണന്‍ പറയുന്ന പോലെയുള്ള കണക്കല്ലേ ഇദ്ദേഹം പറയുന്നത്. അങ്ങിനെ വരുമ്പോള്‍ ഈ കണക്കുകള്‍ സ്വാഭാവികമായും ചോദ്യം ചെയ്യപ്പെടും. തിരിച്ചും സംഭവിച്ചൂടെ. ഒരു സ്ത്രീക്ക് പല പുരുഷന്മാരുമായും ബന്ധപ്പെടാലോ. അങ്ങിനെ വരുമ്പോള്‍ അത് വേശ്യാവൃത്തി ആവുകയും തിരിച്ചാവുമ്പോള്‍ ഇസ്ലാമിക നിയമം ആവുകയും ചെയുന്നു. മുകളില്‍ കാണുന്ന ലിസ്റ്റ് പ്രകാരം 15-64 വയസ്സ് വരെ ഉള്ളവരില്‍ പുരുഷ സാന്ദ്രത ഏറ്റവും കൂടുതല്‍ ഉള്ളത് ഇസ്ലാമിക രാജ്യങ്ങളില്‍ ആണ് എന്ന് കാണാം.
സാഖിര്‍ നായിക്കിന്റെ ലോജിക് പ്രകാരം ഇസ്ലാമിക രാജ്യങ്ങളില്‍ ഓരോ പുരുഷനും ഓരോ സ്ത്രീയെ കല്യാണം കഴിച്ചാല്‍, ബാക്കി വരുന്ന പുരുഷന്മാര്‍ പബ്ലിക് പ്രോപെര്‍ട്ടി ആവില്ലേ. അപ്പൊ അങ്ങിനെ ആവാണ്ടിരിക്കാന്‍ അവിടെ പോളിആണ്ട്രി അനുവദിക്കേണ്ടതല്ലേ. അതോ സ്ത്രീകള്‍ മാത്രമേ പബ്ലിക് പ്രോപെര്‍ട്ടി ആവൂ എന്നാണോ സാഖിര്‍ നായിക് പറയുന്നത്?
മറ്റു മതങ്ങള്‍ തെറ്റാണു എന്ന് പറയുന്നതിനെയല്ല ഞാന്‍ ചോദ്യം ചെയുന്നത്. സ്വന്തം വേദ പുസ്തകത്തില്‍ അന്യായം (പാര്‍ഷിയാലിട്ടി) പറയുമ്പോള്‍, അത്ശരിയാണ് എന്ന് സ്ഥാപ്പിക്കാന്‍ ഒരു ലോജിക് പറയുമ്പോള്‍, അതെ ലോജിക് വെച്ച് അത് തെറ്റും ആവാം എന്ന് സാഖിര്‍ നായിക് ചിന്ദിക്കണം.
വായിച്ചു. ആ‍ശംസകൾ!
ReplyDeleteDa..
ReplyDeleteEven though the number of males are more during birth, over a period of time they gradually fall to the other side due to different natural reasons.
And but for female infanticide, the same would have been the case with some of these Asian and African countries.
The higher female:male ratio in different countries is evident in the same map you have attached here.
Now coming to the high male:female ratio is Arab countries, it is clearly due to the huge immigrant population (as per all the sources I have read)
So I believe Mr Zakir Naik was referring to the natural flow with his points.
If you take the 15-64 age, you can see 90% of countries have more males than females. The points that Naik mentioned at first, alcohol, tobbaco etc decreases life expectancy, that's why more than 95% of the countries have more female population in that category
ReplyDeleteI agree with Viswajith on one point, that we should not try to use numbers and examples to justify the commands in Quran. This will lead people questioning the rules when the numbers doesn't match as Vishwajith had done here. As Muslims, we submit in totality to the will and order of Allah Ta‘ālā. We do not weigh the commands and dictates of the religion on the scales of our limited and scanty logic. Allah is the Most-Wise and His decrees are filled with wisdom and reason whether people can perceive them or not. We are not bound to understand and comprehend every order and decree of Allah; we are merely bound to submit our will to the will of Allah.
ReplyDeleteBut I don’t agree with Vishwajith on saying that the commands in the Quran are illogical. He can say that it is out of his logic with his present knowledge and view of the world. From my point of view, polygamy have a number of social benefits that simply out numbers the defects, if any, it have.
First of all you should understand that polygyny was not introduced by islam. It was practices in almost all religions before the advent of islam. Historically, the Jews and Christians were polygamous. Also the arabs, hindus, Greeks and Persians were polygamous. Islam actually restricted the number of wives that can be taken simultaneously. When the command regarding multiple wives was revealed in Quran, many companions of the prophets actually had to divorce their wives. Prophet didn’t as His wives were also having the status as the mothers of all believers.
If you see the verse regarding polygamy, it actually prevented the ill treatment of women that was common at that time.
“If you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, two, three, or four, but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one”(Surah al-Nisa, 3). And the commentators on Quran had said that women mentioned in the above verse are the mothers of the orphans. This is a way by which islam take care of the widows in the society and their children. And the context of the above verse is not polygamy, but taking care of the orphans.
Regarding the sex ratio, I will suggest you to see the maps present in the same Wiki page, you will find that overwhelmingly women are more in majority of the countries. The reason for more men in gulf countries is due to high immigration of workers and you know why in India and China.
And in today’s society it is easy for men having children to get a new wife and almost impossible for such women to get a new husband. What is your solution for that, let them live their entire life without a life partner and their children live as orphans. If I die before 30, I definitely not want my wife without a partner for life.
How to solve the issue of dowry and harassment from in-laws? If men were willing to take multiple wives, women will find it easier to get married without dowry.
If a women is not able to bear children, should the man abandon her and take a new wife or take a second wife?
And in western society men having extra marital affairs is very common. The mistress have to live in disgrace with no recognition and security. Why such a society can’t accept having women be recognized as his wife and give her full recognition for her and her children.
Now regarding polyandry, it is common sense that its permissibly will make the entire institution of marriage to fail. A man has four wives; each of his wives has four husbands and each of that husband have four wives, then what is the meaning of marriage. Also a woman can at a time mother the child of only one man, but a man can father the child of all his wives at once. If a woman is pregnant with one man’s wife what should the other husbands do during her pregnancy? All her husband’s will be wanting child from her, so she have to be pregnant every year. Polyandry is simply unreasonable and you need to have a great amount of irrationality to argue for that.
Thats what the point is...the entire society is set up in patriarchal way. In a socio biological aspect if chimpanzees and other mammals who resembles humans can have poly andry, why Humans can't have...but no where it will be considered, because the society is setup as patriarchal.
ReplyDeleteI have again and again pointed out that, If you see the list, the reproductive age category 15-64, more than 90% of the countries, the male ratio is more than female ration. It is due to the reasons that Zakir naik told(alcohol, beverages etc) the life expectancy of males goes down and if you see the >64 age category, the female ratio is higher in almost 98% of countries.
People are taught to think in a way, its the patriarchal way..thats what happens...they don't think what would have happened in an egalitarian society..if such society existed as it existed in paleolithic ages, these patriarchal scriptures wouldn't have been written in this way.
Regarding dowry and in law harassment, this is not the way to treat it, has it gone up or down after such books were written. such scriptures has made an egalitarian society to a patriarchal society.
If a women is not able to bear children, should the man abandon her and take a new wife or take a second wife? - what if the man is impotent (i guess in such cases, instead of marrying a second man, adoption is the way right)..so if a women has pbm man can marry...if a man has problem, women has to adopt..thats nice law...
clear patriarchal statements like men are in charge of women (http://quran.com/4/34)....this is disgusting that people still think the way they are fed to think and endorse such ideas.
Polyandry is unreasonable on patriarchal society, not from a biological point of view - Human males and females are less dimorphic in body size than the other great apes, and engage in polyandry, promiscuity, polygyny, and monogamy, the latter two being the most common.
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ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDelete1) Islam is for the society present and not for any hypothetical soceity.
ReplyDelete2) I agree. There are more men than women. But in an average society which I believe is the case for 70% of the world, women are available for marriage at much younger age and men had to wait till he is able to provide for his wife also. It is not fair to just to compare the population in 15-64 period. I would like to know the ratio of women in the range 15-20 and men in the range 21-26 and again women between 21-25 and men between 27-32. No need to be the exact range. Anyhow the permission is not because of numbers. There are a lot of other social causes which can be solved by polygamy. I had already mentioned a few.
Taking prostitution in the current world, why there are 40 million prostitutes in the world. How many do you believe are doing for pleasure and are satisfied with their job? May be in developed countries it is a easy way to lead a luxurious life. What about them in Asia and Africa and latin America. If they were given a chance, would they opt for being a second wife than a prostitute? And how many men would have brought their service and why? Stats that married men in the range 35-45 are the most frequent customers. Why is that so? Are they not satisfied with one wife? Is it dignified to go to brothel to fulfill ones desire or to take one more lady as his wife? Being a prostitute has no dignity and security. But being a wife offers both. And what are the problems you see if a man has more than one wife?
A woman having multiple children will create severe imbalance among the children also. If one husband is well off and the other Is poor, it will also get shown in the way of life. The children of same mother will have different status. But if a man have multiple wives all his children will be having the same status.
3) Men and Women are equal in status. There are no superiority for men over women. It is clear from a number of verses in quran. See 9:71, 3:195, 16:97, 33:35, 2:187. But men are having more social responsibilities and women are having more domestic responsibilities. That is more comfortable and secure for women. See the stats on harassment at work place on women. And islam had made it compulsory for men to provide food, clothing, shelter and respect to his wives. He cannot send her to earn, he has to earn for her even if she is a millionaire. Whereas women can do her own business or job purely on her choice and not by anyone’s force or pressure and is not even responsible for her own expenses.
4) What is your solution for dowry then? Even when it is illegal how many women can hope to get herself married without dowry? You cannot force any man to marry a poor girl. And if you want examples, see the case of Saudi Arabia, there men need to pay women for marriage. And it is the rule in islam, that men need to give mahar to women for marriage. Marriage can happen on promise of mahar also. But wife can refuse to go with husband without paying it in full. And for harassment, women can ask her husband to divorce her and if he refuse to do so can approach the authority for annulling the marriage . Then she can re marry even an already married person. But in a monogamous marriage, women will not have the courage to leave her husband.
5) If the man is impotent, if the wife wishes so she can ask for divorce or annulment as said above and marry some other men. It is one of the easiest reasons to get a divorce for women. But hardly any women divorce her husband for this, because women are superior to men on some cases. There is no law regarding compulsory adoption if couple doesn’t have children.
ReplyDelete6) It is not enough that you just read the word meaning of the verses in quran. No verse in quran can contradict each other. So the meaning has to be derived in a such a way that it doesn’t contradict other verses. In verse 16:90 Allah says “Indeed, Allah orders justice and good conduct and giving to relatives and forbids immorality and bad conduct and oppression.”
See the translation of the verse by Abdullah Yusuf Ali
“Men are guardians over women, because Allah has given the one more (strength) than the other, and because they support them from their means. Therefore the righteous women are devoutly obedient, and guard in (the husband's) absence what Allah would have them guard. As to those women on whose part ye fear disloyalty and ill-conduct, admonish them (first), (Next), refuse to share their beds, (And last) beat them (lightly); but if they return to obedience, seek not against them Means (of annoyance): For Allah is Most High, great (above you all)” translation by Abdullah Yusuf Ali
Regarding the command to beat the wife, the great scholars of islam had curtained that it doesn’t mean physical abuse. It is like a mother /father beating the child for some mis-behaviour. It is not called torture or domestic violence. You read the commands of Allah and his prophet regarding good behavior towards wives. The prophet had said that
“The most perfect amongst the believers in faith is one who has the best manners and best of you are those who are best to their wives”. “ A Muslim must not hate his wife; and if he be displeased with one bad quality in her, then let him be pleased with another that is good. ”One companion asked “What is my duty to my wife?" He said, "That you give her to eat as you eat yourself, and clothe her as you clothe yourself; and do not slap her in the face nor abuse her, nor separate yourself from her in displeasure.”
You read the verse with sayings of the prophet. It is people like you who interpret the verse otherwise. We never did.
7) Islam gives guidance for human beings to paradise. If you were to live like animals Almighty need not had sent so many prophets.
Again you are talking from what scripture tells. It is how religious people are mapped to think. Can't think beyond that. So there is not point in telling that the society was made to think like that.
ReplyDelete1)I haven't talked about a hypothetical society. I talked about sociobiological behaviour
2)There are lot of male prostitutes also. Again in a patriarchial society, women don't have other choices. If it was an egalitarian society, probably the scenario would have been different. But all the scriptures are patriarchal, so there is no scope for this. As far as data is concerned, i am convinced that there is no scope of polygamy in the present world, so if that has to be validated with data,its the responsibility of one who has to prove that polygamy should exist.
3)I have also quoted verses in which men are stated as masters of women. if there are verses which contradicts this, it is because all these scriptures are written over a period of time by different people (again this won't be put for discussion by believers who tells that it is god written - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Quran). Again the harassment of women in work place, domestication of women is happening because the society is made like that. If equal empowerment is given, the scenario will change. Women enjoyed same rights as man in the pre historic period. Its after the civilization started, patriarchy became dominant.
4) Dowry in any case is illegal, if it is given to women or men. A bond should be based on love. not on money. In an egalitarian society, no women would be afraid to leave her husband (in the same way as no man afraid to divorce a women)
5)hahaha...why is a change in rule here. Why the woman has to divorce before marrying. Anyway the first husband is impotent. There is no chance of having an offspring from that husband.
6)Ok lets agree that it is for the betterment of wife. Can't the wife have the same rights over man? Is there any such verse in Quran where it tells that a woman can beat a man if he misbehaves (not the punishment to man), I am asking Woman beating a man, as it is told a man can beat woman for her betterment.
7) Its up to the believers to believe that only some people are god/god messengers/man gods etc. According to me every one who imparts betterment of society to a better future can be called prophet.
I had been against religion all my childhood days till I was 15 or so. I hardly had prayed except on Fridays (that also because that we were supposed to do so) till I finished higher secondary. I even remember saying to my friend that for me all religious are the same. I was born in a muslim family and I became a muslim. If I was born in a Hindu family I would have become a hindu. So it is clear that I was not brought up religious. What my beliefs are only what I had found out to be true.
ReplyDeleteAnd I know your opposition to religion is based on its meaninglessness and stupidity in many matters. And I do agree on that. But as I became convinced that there had to be a creator and my studies in islam solved all my doubts, I am now convinced that islam have the solution for all the problems present in the world.
2) What percentage of male prostitutes are there? They are doing it only for easy money and not for saving their lives. You cannot compare male prostitutes with the females prostitutes in Asia, Africa or Latin America.
I don’t know what all aspects of egalitarian society you are talking about, but taking only the equality of man and woman in all aspects of life, do you believe that such a set up can exist. The most natural thing is that men usually takes the major decisions in a family, But islam had encouraged its followers to discuss every matter with all those who are concerned before taking a decision.
In egalitarian society, what will happen to a father and daughter, should father obey the daughter as daughter obeys the father? Should mother obey the son also? Equality cannot be brought in all aspects. There is a natural system which had kept the social life still alive. Islam has defined every aspects of life. It has commanded all men to obey their mother and all women to obey their husband. Islam is not patriarchal or egalitarian society, but the one which will lead to the well being of all individuals in it.
Polygamy is not a compulsory thing. It is an option available to handle lots of social issues.
If men are masters of women, how can quran order men to obey their mother?
3)Almighty had not couriered a book from sky. It was revealed in phases to the prophet over a span of 23 years. They were memorized in entirety by the companions. And they were written at that time itself but not compiled in one book. After the demise of the prophet , quran was compiled in one book. It was easy to compile because the entire quran was memorized by many companions of the prophet. Even today thousands and thousands of people all over the world can recite the quran entirely from memory. It is a miracle of the Quran that so many people can by heart a book of 600 pages. The chain of people who had memorized the quran had never ceased.
Who said there are contradictions in Quran? It is your claim. My statement was that the interpretation you chose doesn’t stand the verses in quran itself. But the interpretation I mentioned do.
What is the solution? Do you want society to go to prehistoric period? Who will give the empowerment?
4) Dowry given to muslim women is not illegal. Read definition of Dowry in THE DOWRY PROHIBITION ACT, 1961. And what problem do you see in giving dowry to women? Criticism should be constructive and not for the sake of it.
ReplyDelete5) There are other factors that make man different from woman. polyandry Is not sustainable but polygyny easily is. It is not enough to start something, it need to be sustained. The emotional levels of men and women are different. You have a nice point regarding impotency, but the other husband hardly can tolerate him with his wife.
6) I suggest you to read the verse carefully. First advice them, if they don’t hear forsake them in bed for some days and if still don’t rectify herself beat her. Scholars had declared that beating should not cause physical injury nor you should beat her on face. It is only an indication of his displeasure towards her. It is clear that before allowed to beat on some issue some days needs to be passed by, so that he can test her by forsaking her in the bed. What type of quarrel will last so many days between husband and wife? Wife beating the husband will be the last day of any marriage, let alone Islamic.
7) We choose to believe.
1) As I am convinced that no religion can solve any of the problem that mankind faces today (Hunger, Poverty, Illness), there is no point in believing it. If the point is about life after death, I am not interested also (That's a hypothesis as of now)
ReplyDelete2)Male prostitution - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Male_prostitution, In a patriarchal society if such thing exist, then female prostitution obviously will be higher.
I am not talking in each and every aspect, but where all it can be applied, it should be applied. Which is not happening now. Regarding obeying elders, parents etc It depends on individuals morality. In a patriarchal or egalitarian society it depends on that individual. I am asking the same question, why is there a contradiction?
3)I have stated my claims with solid data. I can't comment on beliefs (that is belief only). I don't know who will give the empowerment and as long as religions have a strong hold in society, I know bringing empowerment is a difficult task.
4) I know taking Mahr as per Indian law is legal. It is illegal for me ennanu udheshichathu. You need not have any kind of money or jewels involved in a marriage other than consent of boy and girl (as in register marriages).
5) Polygyny is easily sustainable - Luckily other religions have prohibited irrespective of what their scriptures tells. Other husband is made to think like that, that the women is his property only.:), same reason Zakhir naik calls women as property and tells men to have more than one wife, same thinking level makes our man to call woman as "charakku", goods...
6) I am asking why is there no verse to tell women to treat a man in the same order?. Wife beating husband is last day of marriage. Why is it like that? There lies the point and you tell that Quran is same for both. It should tell the followers that see, there is a punishment you can give to your wife, if she commits crime, you are also supposed to have the same punishment if crime is committed.
islam is a practical religion. Islam was implemented first and then it was written. Otherwise we will have lots of ideas like the ones you propose and then according to you itself it is not possible to implement those things. Talking of problems is easy, what is your solution? How can it be implemented? Men and Women are never equal, they have separate existence and separate responsibilities. That doesn't make men superior in status or women superior in status.
ReplyDeleteOther religions have legalized prostitution and adultery in practice , if not by law.
I don't think I need to explain any more about the status of women is islam.
6)I didn't say that it is mentioned in quran. It is the normal emotional state of man. Can you prove that man and woman are having the same psychological and emotional state as that of man?
I don't expect anyone to accept islam or quran when he doesn't accept the creator itself.